On TechRepublic: Windows 7: Slower to boot than Vista?
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By John Borland
Posted on ZDNet News: Aug 30, 2005 11:00:00 AM

As Microsoft readies the next version of its Windows operating system, called Vista, the software giant is building in unprecedented levels of safeguards against video piracy.

For the first time, the Windows operating system will wall off some audio and video processes almost completely from users and outside programmers, in hopes of making them harder for hackers to reach. The company is establishing digital security checks that could even shut off a computer's connections to some monitors or televisions if antipiracy procedures that stop high-quality video copying aren't in place.

In short, the company is bending over backward--and investing considerable technological resources--to make sure Hollywood studios are happy with the next version of Windows, which is expected to ship on new PCs by late 2006. Microsoft believes it has to make nice with the entertainment industry if the PC is going to form the center of new digital home networks, which could allow such new features as streaming high-definition movies around the home.

PCs won't be the only ones with reinforced pirate-proofing. Other new consumer electronics devices will have to play by a similar set of rules in order to play back the studios' most valuable content, Microsoft executives say. Indeed, assuring studios that content will have extremely strong protection is the only way any device will be able to support the studios' planned high-definition content, the software company says.

"The table is already set," said Marcus Matthias, product manager for Microsoft's digital media division. "We can come in and eat at the buffet, or we can stand outside and wash cars."

Hollywood studios didn't get all the protections they wanted in Vista, and record labels have even seen some of their key concerns about copy-protecting CDs left unaddressed. But the Vista operating system as a whole goes much further than any general-purpose computing platform before it toward addressing content companies' piracy fears.

Although ordinary MP3 files and DVDs will play without any difference, the deep changes in the way the operating system handles some entertainment content will come with costs. The most obvious of these may be the risk of compatibility problems between some older monitors or TVs and Vista computers, particularly when trying to play high-quality video. Vista may also make it harder to do some casual copying, such as recording Internet audio.

"This is definitely being driven by Microsoft's desire to position Windows as a home entertainment hub, and to do that they have to make some concessions," said Matt Rosoff, an analyst with research firm Directions on Microsoft. "They're walking a line, trying to please both sides (content companies and consumers) at the same time."

These changes are worrisome to some computer programmers and digital activist groups. They fear that increasingly high security levels will block off avenues of programming innovation, or even stop computer owners from accessing portions of their own machines--a little like walling off a room inside a private house.

"There is a concern that there is a tendency to lock down parts of the design to protect the flanks of the copy-protection system," said Princeton University computer science professor Edward Felten, who has been an outspoken critic of rigid copy-protection rules. "That makes it harder for everyone, including Microsoft, to adapt to new uses."

Putting video behind a wall
Several major changes have been made to the way the operating system will handle video and audio, though few of these are included in the early version now in the hands of beta testers. The rest of the components will likely be added in the next, as yet unscheduled, beta release, and will be in the final launch of the operating system next year.

At the most basic level, some audio and video--at least when it is in Microsoft's Windows Media format--will be handled in a new "protected environment" that will keep applications such as media players or plug-ins separate from the actual media data.

FAQ
Vista's antipiracy shield
Microsoft is working closely with studios in ways that could affect your home entertainment system. Here's what you need to know.

Essentially, this means that much of the actual heavy lifting of decoding, unlocking and playing the audio will happen in what some engineers refer to as a separate "sandbox." Media player applications will send remote control commands such as play, fast-forward or stop into this protected space, without directly handling the data as they do today.

Technology called the "Protected Video Path" will then attempt to ensure that a video stream is encrypted--and thus difficult to copy--all the way until it reaches a monitor or other device where it is being displayed.

This won't always be possible, because most analog plugs, and some digital connections, don't support this kind of copy protection. Part of Vista's job will be to check to see what kind of devices are linked to the computer, and through what kind of connection, and decide whether the content can be encrypted or otherwise protected over that link.

If the answer is "no," in the case of high-resolution Video Graphics Array (VGA) connections, or some early Digital Video Interface connections, the computer could shut down output of video altogether through those plugs, if the content owners require that.

Alternately, Vista will include a "constriction" feature that can decrease the resolution of high-definition video on the fly, outputting a version that is slightly fuzzier (about the same as today's DVDs) than the pristine original. This can be used as an alternative to blocking a connection altogether, if a content company won't let high-definition video play over the lower-security outputs.

"I think it is going to take time for the labels and the application vendors--not just Microsoft--to find a middle ground."
--John Paddleford, lead program manager, Microsoft

This feature won't affect most HD televisions, which typically are already shipped with secure connection technologies. PC monitors have been slower to adopt tools such as Intel's HDCP (High-Bandwidth Digital Content Protection) that support secure connections, however.

Most of these advanced copy-protection features in Vista are designed to apply to high-definition content and are unlikely to change the way today's DVDs or broadcast-quality content is played, Microsoft says.

Labels lack copy-protected CD support
A similar process will happen for copy-protected audio files, potentially encrypting the audio until it leaves the computer, and offering the ability to turn off specific outputs if content owners deem them insecure.

For the last year, record labels have sought additional features in the operating system that would make playing copy-protected CDs a more streamlined experience. But so far, Microsoft has not added any features specifically supporting these new CDs, saying that the technology isn't yet mature, and that other companies--Apple Computer and other music software companies included--also need to be involved.

"We're seeing digital distribution move at a rapid enough pace that the rules for which people access content today across the music services are very consistent," said John Paddleford, lead program manager for the Microsoft team that works directly with content companies. "This is what we're driving the labels to reach on the CD itself, so there's a consistent consumer experience. I think it is going to take time for the labels and the application vendors--not just Microsoft--to find a middle ground."

A spokesman for the Recording Industry Association of America, which has engaged in discussions with Microsoft on this issue, declined to comment.

Sensitive subject
Microsoft is aware that the high level of protection--which could result in some monitors and TVs not playing high-definition content at full resolution--could spark criticism and confusion.

The company is quick to say that this has not been a case of studios dictating policy to programmers.

"The studios are very good about not trying to design software," Paddleford said. "I've never had a studio say, 'We need an API (application programming interface) that does this.' But they do talk about, 'Well, we want to make sure that our theatrical content doesn't get played in any place but a theater.'"

For their part, studio executives say they haven't been involved in the intimate details, but are happy to see what Microsoft has done.

"The greatest problem in existing operating systems is that content is in the clear across certain interfaces," said Chris Cookson, chief technology officer for Warner Bros. "They've undertaken to improve that, which everyone was glad to see."

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Let's LIVE
I prefer to live actively anyhow, watch very little TV.

See http://ru.org/TV.htm

It applies to adults as well.... (Read the rest)
Posted by: robinbare Posted on: 10/21/05 You are currently: a Guest | | Terms of Use
Do you want Fries with that?  Nigel Johnstone | 08/30/05
That and Obesity  nucrash | 08/30/05
Still don't get it do you?  ShadeTree | 08/30/05
You don't really think  bjbrock | 08/30/05
You know I can see a new ENTERTAINMENT underground  Laff | 08/30/05
There is already an independent film and music ...  ShadeTree | 08/30/05
Yeah but the future you describe MIGHT make that  Laff | 08/30/05
So what?  ShadeTree | 08/30/05
That's pretty much an illusion Shade.  Laff | 08/30/05
Collectability  Spoon Jabber | 08/30/05
actually choose to purchase it  just-me_z | 09/01/05
NO WAY  IceTheNet@... | 08/31/05
So what...  Patrick Jones | 08/30/05
DRM is already in your CE devices.  ShadeTree | 08/30/05
I don't have an HDTV  Patrick Jones | 08/30/05
Chances are the next one you buy will be HD.  ShadeTree | 08/30/05
We will see  Patrick Jones | 08/30/05
You're confusing a few things Shade  tic swayback | 08/30/05
Not necessary  Spoon Jabber | 08/30/05
Not confusing anything!  ShadeTree | 08/30/05
Yes, you are confused  tic swayback | 08/30/05
FCC Requirements  Ardian Daka | 08/31/05
Big deal  voska | 09/01/05
Its all catch 22  Nigel Johnstone | 08/30/05
Not a catch 22 at all  ShadeTree | 08/30/05
So did DVD  Nigel Johnstone | 08/30/05
You forget  frgough@... | 08/30/05
Just because one format failed is no ...  ShadeTree | 08/30/05
Government backing means nothing  voska | 09/01/05
You clearly don't get it!  ShadeTree | 09/01/05
There was a time when people got along just fine  Laff | 09/01/05
Simple solution Jim  Spoon Jabber | 09/01/05
Don't get it? Hell, I don't WANT it.  gordon@... | 08/30/05
Anyone who would buy an OS  bjbrock | 08/30/05
I agree, but...  jimothy@... | 09/01/05
You missed the play entirely!  ShadeTree | 09/01/05
OK...now for the 64 million dollar question.  Laff | 08/30/05
You can keep and use your old system, ...  ShadeTree | 08/30/05
Well even "IF" that proves to be true, and I doubt it  Laff | 08/30/05
Entertainment Quality  mbrierley | 08/31/05
Locking out the majority of customers is a bad business strategy  tic swayback | 08/30/05
And who is this village IDIOT?  jwschull@... | 08/31/05
Sure it will!  Jeff Spicoli | 08/30/05
It is not the same content!  ShadeTree | 09/01/05
Won't matter  voska | 09/01/05
The whole point of Microsoft's trusted path strategy is ...  ShadeTree | 09/01/05
don't think Vista is a good name for this OS....perhaps Tunnel ?  Moradin | 08/30/05
Or in other words  Otto_Delete | 08/30/05
Exactly!!!!  bjbrock | 08/30/05
Yes, it was all in the commercial!  Spoon Jabber | 08/30/05
Don't kid yourself.  ShadeTree | 09/01/05
Why upgrade ever ?  NotRichandFamous | 08/30/05
I disagree  Otto_Delete | 08/30/05
Hollywood, Microsoft align on new Windows  Loverock Davidson | 08/30/05
Stopping piracy - not even. Taking control  bjbrock | 08/30/05
Stopping piracy  Loverock Davidson | 08/30/05
It is?!  Spoon Jabber | 08/30/05
I agree!  James T. Kirk | 08/30/05
How do you figure that?  Loverock Davidson | 08/30/05
I'm all for someone like an artist getting paid for  Laff | 08/30/05
So who are these leeches your talking about?  ShadeTree | 08/30/05
A direct payment to the artist and those who make  Laff | 08/30/05
Not quite  osreinstall | 08/30/05
Not pirating myself just don't use/listen to/watch their  Laff | 08/30/05
Never said you were.  osreinstall | 08/30/05
I agree and artists should get paid  Loverock Davidson | 08/30/05
Learn about music contracts  tic swayback | 08/30/05
The web site is dedicated to anti-label along with alike websites in whois  osreinstall | 08/31/05
the band itself gets 15% of the music sales  Tommy Gun | 08/30/05
Read it again  James T. Kirk | 08/30/05
I disagree  Patrick Jones | 08/30/05
Loverock wake for once in your life  Can you hear me | 08/30/05
My eyes are open  Loverock Davidson | 08/30/05
Bunk  frgough@... | 08/30/05
Why? One two words: Greed and Monopoly (NT)  hal9000mx | 08/30/05
Re: Hollywood, Microsoft align on new Windows  Anti_Zealot | 08/30/05
No I'm not  Loverock Davidson | 08/30/05
Actually, you don't produce anything valuable. (NT)  hal9000mx | 08/30/05
in 1983...  Tommy Gun | 08/30/05
My point exactly! (nt)  Anti_Zealot | 08/30/05
What is this price decline you speak of?  nucrash | 08/30/05
Funniest post every Loverock!  tic swayback | 08/30/05
Control  Loverock Davidson | 08/30/05
Obey your masters  tic swayback | 08/30/05
Extremes  Loverock Davidson | 08/30/05
Rose colored glasses  tic swayback | 08/30/05
Perhaps you need to put the glasses on  Loverock Davidson | 08/30/05
Stop drinking the kool-aid  tic swayback | 08/30/05
Let me explain it again purple punch  Loverock Davidson | 08/30/05
Keep on chugging  tic swayback | 08/30/05
All your examples are dead wrong!  ShadeTree | 09/01/05
9.2  linux_skynyrd | 08/30/05
Our fearless protectors  dr praetorius | 08/30/05
Interesting tradeoff...  jasonp@... | 08/30/05
Is there more to life than MS and Hollywood?  tripolitan | 08/30/05
We The People  tystoy1 | 08/30/05
Agree  Nullifidian | 08/30/05
You may use my car, IF you keep it SECURE.  No_Ax_to_Grind | 08/30/05
Bad Analogy  Rick_K | 08/30/05
Perfect Analogy!  No_Ax_to_Grind | 08/30/05
Missing Persons  tic swayback | 08/30/05
But they do have tic!!!  No_Ax_to_Grind | 08/30/05
But consumers are asking for more, not less  tic swayback | 08/30/05
Fact of life, you rarely get everything you want.  No_Ax_to_Grind | 08/30/05
Sell out and lock out your customers and see how well that works  tic swayback | 08/30/05
My opinion doesn't matter at all.  No_Ax_to_Grind | 08/30/05
We know that, but OUR opinion DOES matter  Jeff Spicoli | 08/30/05
My opinion certainly matters  tic swayback | 08/30/05
sad  CobraA1 | 08/30/05
Your fact maybe  voska | 09/01/05
Bwahahahaha!!!  Jeff Spicoli | 08/30/05
Message has been deleted.  Jeff Spicoli | 08/30/05
Sorry, I Don't Want To Borrow Your Yugo  Mike_Coxs_Rep | 08/30/05
Were you trying is some desperate way to make a point?  No_Ax_to_Grind | 08/30/05
I understand where you're coming from  Michael Kelly | 08/30/05
But I'm not using your car, I'm using MINE.  James T. Kirk | 08/30/05
But what if the car is "secure" and **YOU** can't use it?!  Jeff Spicoli | 08/30/05
But I own the car not you  voska | 09/01/05
And someone walled off part of my house  A.Sinic | 09/01/05
Wow.  opensourcepro | 08/30/05
Shame on you Microsoft  tic swayback | 08/30/05
Pure BS!  No_Ax_to_Grind | 08/30/05
Oh do they?  Anti_Zealot | 08/30/05
Sure and here is the proof.  No_Ax_to_Grind | 08/30/05
Nice virtual proof  Anti_Zealot | 08/30/05
But you can't change the facts in front of you.  No_Ax_to_Grind | 08/30/05
Crying about things...  Anti_Zealot | 08/30/05
I have a media center PC  Mike_Coxs_Rep | 08/30/05
False proof  CobraA1 | 08/30/05
That DVD player isn't used to play DVDs  voska | 09/01/05
Consumers Don't Want This Crap  Mike_Coxs_Rep | 08/30/05
Impostor!  Anti_Zealot | 08/30/05
all the experts said...  Tommy Gun | 08/30/05
The same line of crap  tic swayback | 08/30/05
Another clueless poster.  No_Ax_to_Grind | 08/30/05
What are you talking about No Ax?  tic swayback | 08/30/05
The simple facts tic.  No_Ax_to_Grind | 08/30/05
When have consumers ever demanded this?  tic swayback | 08/30/05
GTee, how many downloads are made with P2P everyday?  No_Ax_to_Grind | 08/30/05
How much are they willing to pay for those downloads?  tic swayback | 08/30/05
so you're saying no_ax's customers are scum of the earth?  Mike_Coxs_Rep | 08/30/05
How many will pay?  No_Ax_to_Grind | 08/30/05
I'd say you're wrong  tic swayback | 08/30/05
How does this help?  Patrick Jones | 08/30/05
Go along with what?  Michael Kelly | 08/30/05
Working with Microsoft instead of against them.  Anton Philidor | 08/30/05
But what other systems DO accept DRM?  Michael Kelly | 08/30/05
Attention is to new features...  Anton Philidor | 08/30/05
Actually my major beef isn't with MS  Michael Kelly | 08/30/05
Yes...  No_Ax_to_Grind | 08/30/05
What good is it  Michael Kelly | 08/30/05
The reason...  No_Ax_to_Grind | 08/30/05
But it has to be done right  tic swayback | 08/30/05
Right for who?  No_Ax_to_Grind | 08/30/05
Right for the consumer  tic swayback | 08/30/05
Re: Right for who?  Michael Kelly | 08/30/05
Does it matter?  tic swayback | 08/30/05
Oh?  tslocum7 | 08/30/05
They are all customers.  No_Ax_to_Grind | 08/30/05
And one is clearly easier to milk  tic swayback | 08/30/05
I think MS had a choice  A.Sinic | 09/01/05
MS Proving It Is Secure  Mike_Coxs_Rep | 08/30/05
Shame on us....  nucrash | 08/30/05
Good News!  bmgoodman | 08/30/05
Still not understanding the market.  Anton Philidor | 08/30/05
Smart, balanced post Anton  tic swayback | 08/30/05
Ummm, I have to disagree in part.  No_Ax_to_Grind | 08/30/05
Not a disagreement at all.  Anton Philidor | 08/30/05
I agree with you...  No_Ax_to_Grind | 08/30/05
If I buy it, I own it  tic swayback | 08/30/05
Very limited ownership...  No_Ax_to_Grind | 08/30/05
Complete ownership  tic swayback | 08/30/05
Re: If I buy it, I own it  none none | 08/30/05
Do the benefits outweigh the losses?  tic swayback | 08/30/05
Content companies wouldn't mind losing downloads  Anton Philidor | 08/30/05
You're probably right  tic swayback | 08/30/05
Which is it?  Patrick Jones | 08/30/05
Simple, see how many P2P downloads there are.  No_Ax_to_Grind | 08/30/05
Call me when they have to pay for it  tic swayback | 08/30/05
So then your second statement was the false one?  Patrick Jones | 08/30/05
Let me break it into small steps for you.  No_Ax_to_Grind | 08/30/05
Successful software offers something better  tic swayback | 08/30/05
No need tic...  No_Ax_to_Grind | 08/30/05
My stereo is over 10 years old  tic swayback | 08/30/05
Mine stereo is over 10 years old, too.  Patrick Jones | 08/30/05
That's not true anymore Tic  voska | 09/01/05
I agree but  bka1959 | 08/31/05
Linux Better Get The Video Thing Straight  nikoli | 08/30/05
If Linux wants the content companies' products...  Anton Philidor | 08/30/05
Think about embedded Linux  tic swayback | 08/30/05
Embedded Linux with DRM...  Anton Philidor | 08/30/05
Think of it as a second chance  tic swayback | 08/30/05
Who says the content companies want...  Anton Philidor | 08/30/05
Because they want to make money  tic swayback | 08/30/05
I don't think the MPAA or RIAA cares about the 3%  No_Ax_to_Grind | 08/30/05
I'm talking about something different  tic swayback | 08/30/05
Naw, MS is getting he cost of embbed low enough no one cares.  No_Ax_to_Grind | 08/30/05
Either way  tic swayback | 08/30/05
If the protections work...  Anton Philidor | 08/30/05
Sorry tic, the Media Center PC is already a success.  No_Ax_to_Grind | 08/30/05
Is it really a success?  tic swayback | 08/30/05
How low can Microsoft go?  voska | 09/01/05
Why would the stuidos agree to it?  No_Ax_to_Grind | 08/30/05
Care to back up "no security"?  CobraA1 | 08/30/05
Reference re Theft of IP  Anton Philidor | 08/30/05
Contrary cases  tic swayback | 08/30/05
Hardly different  Anton Philidor | 08/30/05
Awfully vague  tic swayback | 08/30/05
Yes, theft is a metaphor.  Anton Philidor | 08/30/05
Metaphor is not the law  tic swayback | 08/30/05
The threat of lawyers.  Anton Philidor | 08/30/05
Mixed Bag  tic swayback | 08/30/05
Metahors are meaingless in law  voska | 09/01/05
Typical M$  tslocum7 | 08/30/05
This Won't Stop Pirating At All  Mike_Coxs_Rep | 08/30/05
You need to read up on TPC...  No_Ax_to_Grind | 08/30/05
Oh, so I'll buy a new processor?  Mike_Coxs_Rep | 08/30/05
Nothing lasts forever....  No_Ax_to_Grind | 08/30/05
And that will happen how?  Patrick Jones | 08/30/05
Lots of ways to do it.  No_Ax_to_Grind | 08/30/05
Copy protection  Anti_Zealot | 08/31/05
And no one has hacked Halo.  No_Ax_to_Grind | 08/31/05
Unhackable games  Anti_Zealot | 08/31/05
No_Ax, you are just wrong..  Patrick Jones | 08/31/05
I know people who have copied Halo and Halo 2  voska | 09/01/05
It'll be cracked...  lawryll@... | 08/30/05
I doubt it...  No_Ax_to_Grind | 08/30/05
Even if the hardware proection works...  Anton Philidor | 08/30/05
Yup, Locks Only Keep Honest People Honest  nikoli | 08/30/05
Huh?  lawryll@... | 08/30/05
Easy Way Around It, Use An Older CPU  Mike_Coxs_Rep | 08/30/05
Not when the encoding checks the CPU.  No_Ax_to_Grind | 08/30/05
uh-huh...  lawryll@... | 08/30/05
Gee, do you read anything at all?  No_Ax_to_Grind | 08/30/05
Keep Trying, I Still Have Yet To Be Stopped  Mike_Coxs_Rep | 08/30/05
Please contiue to believe that...  No_Ax_to_Grind | 08/30/05
It will still fail  voska | 09/01/05
yup  Jeff Spicoli | 08/30/05
It's not like emulators don't exist  woot! | 08/31/05
I have no doubts  tic swayback | 08/30/05
And that is what? .00000001 of the users?  No_Ax_to_Grind | 08/30/05
Now you're backpedaling  tic swayback | 08/30/05
Tic, are you kidding? He won't admit to anything  Mike_Coxs_Rep | 08/30/05
I want one!  Patrick Jones | 08/30/05
Hmmm, let me explain it to you.  No_Ax_to_Grind | 08/30/05
So you were wrong earlier?  tic swayback | 08/30/05
Like I said tic, if you wanna build a CPU...  No_Ax_to_Grind | 08/30/05
Intel's microcode worked real well for OSX  tic swayback | 08/30/05
Also Tic  voska | 09/01/05
Maybe thats what Apple wanted  jforjan@... | 09/01/05
Sure...  Patrick Jones | 08/30/05
Read the article again...  No_Ax_to_Grind | 08/30/05
Oooh, that will stop them - not.  Patrick Jones | 08/30/05
Casual user is the ones to stop first.  No_Ax_to_Grind | 08/30/05
We will see..  Patrick Jones | 08/31/05
Easily defeated...  lawryll@... | 08/30/05
We will see...  No_Ax_to_Grind | 08/30/05
Yep, we're crooks bitty  Mike_Coxs_Rep | 08/30/05
Yes indeed you are.  No_Ax_to_Grind | 08/30/05
So if we do our pirating with linux will that shut you up?  Mike_Coxs_Rep | 08/30/05
Take chill pill Mike-Whatever...  No_Ax_to_Grind | 08/30/05
Mind like a crook?  lawryll@... | 08/30/05
to beat a crook think like one  voska | 09/01/05
Re: Read the article again...  none none | 08/30/05
RTFA  A.Sinic | 09/01/05
Last Virus  jforjan@... | 09/01/05
We'll see about that  CobraA1 | 08/30/05
Where there is an output .. there is a way.  Been_Done_Before | 09/01/05
Not likely  osreinstall | 08/30/05
This Is Gonna Die Faster Than The DAT Tapes  Mike_Coxs_Rep | 08/30/05
Here's a concept...if MPAA/RIA/Microsuck want to own my machine  Mike_Coxs_Rep | 08/30/05
Tehy don't give a dang about your machine, just their content.  No_Ax_to_Grind | 08/30/05
Sorry, I was ripping cds and copying DVDs...  Mike_Coxs_Rep | 08/30/05
they don't even care about the content  voska | 09/01/05
TOP FIVE REASONS NOT TO RUN LINUX  Mike_Coxs_Rep | 08/30/05
I have a good reason not to run linux  osreinstall | 08/30/05
Message has been deleted.  Mike_Coxs_Rep | 08/30/05
Just another reason to stay clear of Vista(NT)  DarthRidiculous | 08/30/05
ROFL! This is going to be great  Chad_z | 08/30/05
In not worried...  DragonBRockin | 08/30/05
Goodbye Joe User  none none | 08/30/05
oh really  X41 | 08/30/05
it might give a few people a reason to sue if...  Arm A. Geddon | 08/30/05
Let's add more features....  dzash2000 | 08/31/05
What about service packs and updates  sdf3@... | 08/31/05
So who wants to raise some VC ...  mujadaddy | 08/31/05
longhorn/vista. ie security and pirating  ddbpack@... | 08/31/05
Sure  doc_cotton | 08/31/05
$5 is all its worth!  jobert48@... | 09/01/05
Microsoft Coding  vickiecars@... | 09/01/05
Change of Trust  jforjan@... | 09/01/05
HA! Naivete In Action  mujadaddy | 09/01/05
Simple Solution  svasutin | 09/01/05
Let's LIVE  robinbare | 10/21/05

What do you think?

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