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By John Carroll
Posted on ZDNet News: Nov 4, 2004 2:11:00 PM

Commentary--Firefox has been getting a lot of press lately. Firefox is free software in the Stallman-sanctioned sense--released under a GPL license and built atop technology developed for the Mozilla project. Everybody LOVES Firefox. Not only is it a great browser, but it will make your teeth whiter and secure you a date with Carmen Electra.

Okay, perhaps I exaggerate, but on that note, I haven’t seen ANYONE criticize Firefox. To a certain extent, this is because it is the best alternative in a world dominated by Internet Explorer (cue Opera/Safari/Konqueror fans to go into a frothing rage). On the other hand, as I can personally attest, it is politically incorrect in the extreme to criticize anything stamped with the open source moniker.

In short, though Firefox is a good browser, political considerations have allowed it to escape some deserved criticism. Firefox supporters make some rather costly demands of Web sites, particularly given that it commands such a small, albeit growing, share of the browser marketplace. Recent feverish Firefox support pieces aside, I still think that ignoring IE’s non-standard features will prove a large, and unnecessary, barrier to the success of the best alternative to Internet Explorer.

My Experience providing support for Firefox
As a certain square-jawed actor might have said had he been abducted by aliens and forced to write software, "the experience of one programmer doesn’t amount to a hill of beans in this crazy world." Even so, for a browser that touts its support for HTML standards, I was surprised to find that it had difficulty with standard HTML.

Check out this link under Internet Explorer, and then Firefox. I have created a Web page with a fixed position left, top and bottom sidebar that surrounds a scrollable area. All regions resize to completely fill the browser when its dimensions are changed.

To make this work, I have a table which lays out the basic position of the main sections (left bar, top bar, bottom bar, content). I’ve placed a div tag inside the "content" area of the table, setting its width and height to 100% and adding automatic scrollbars by setting the "overflow" CSS attribute to "auto."

None of this is rocket science. Some might object to the use of tables, which in CSS circles might seem SO 1990s. I couldn’t care less. Tables are easy to use, are immediately intuitive to this old HTML hand-coder, and most important, have existed since the early days of HTML. Regardless of your preferences, there is no reason they SHOULDN’T work.

In IE, the page renders properly. In Firefox, the div tag refuses to size relative to its parent table (and doesn’t provide scrollbars), which causes the bottom toolbar to disappear past the edge of the screen.

I managed a workaround by detecting the browser and using a fixed width for the table and div tags when the browser isn’t Internet Explorer. This isn’t ideal, as the page doesn’t automatically adjust to fill the browser window, but it works. Even so, Opera still has problems, and the workaround makes no difference in Apple’s Safari browser.

Differences in scripting environment offered a few hurdles. Client-side scripting has come a long way since 1998, when I was tasked with making a Javascript tree-view work in both IE and Netscape. Since Firefox is a successor of sorts to Netscape (well, at least spawn of Netscape), that’s a good thing.

Still, there are a few gotchas. Why it would kill anyone to provide "document.all" support in scripts is beyond me, though document.GetElementByID() does the trick, if in a more verbose fashion.

In other areas, however, the replacement is not a match in terms of functionality. Like it or not, but showModalDialog is a better way to provide feature-rich user feedback windows than window.confirm (which Firefox supports, even though there is NO PUBLIC STANDARD for it). With showModalDialog, I can pop a window offering "Yes," "No," or "Cancel" buttons that requires a response before proceeding. With window.confirm, I have to craft all my questions as something to which "OK" or "Cancel" makes sense, never mind asking for three, four, or five state responses.

I’m not the only one who thinks so. Yahoo mail uses showModalDialog to generate prompts the look and feel of which matches that of the main page if the client is IE, but drops back to window.confirm for everyone else.

Unreasonable Demands
A number of respondents to my last article claimed incompatibilities didn’t matter, because if a site didn’t provide decent Firefox support, the community would apply pressure to force them to change or else face lost customers and/or bad press.

Though that may well be the case, it’s a bit like fans of a company which lays railroad tracks too narrow for most existing trains bullying engine manufacturers to alter their product to accommodate them. Would it not be so much cheaper, in the aggregate, if the tracks were the proper width in the first place?

Essentially, Firefox’s (or Opera’s, or Safari’s) refusal to implement features found in the browser used by 95% of people who access the internet means that they are insisting that hundreds of thousands of Web sites around the world tailor their sites to accommodate them. That seems an uphill battle, not to mention strange given that many who demand it are the same people who will be tasked with ensuring compatibility across all those browsers. I don’t know about you, but navigating browser idiosyncrasies isn’t my idea of a good time.

Besides, the resistance seems based on the mistaken notion that Web standards are a panacea for browser incompatibility. As noted in past articles, standards DO NOT MEAN that all implementations will have the same performance characteristics. My site now looks fine in Firefox (albeit fixed width), but looks less good in Opera, and doesn’t work at all in Safari. Both tout themselves as champions of Web standards, yet fail the consistency test, proof positive that incompatibilities aren’t dreamt up by executives bent on world domination, but are systemic to software development. As I’ve ALSO said before, there are reasons why one company or product regularly manages to dominate a particular software market.

Implementing IE’s non-standard features would make it easy for developers to target alternative browsers. It would enable developers to tap the reams of documentation which exist for Microsoft products. Ximian’s Miguel de Icaza has noted that Mono (an open source implementation of .NET) benefit from Microsoft marketing and documentation efforts. Microsoft provides EXTREMELY good documentation, a fact noted by many developers less enamored of Microsoft technology than myself.

Few have the money to create comparable documentation that is so centralized. Microsoft does. For a group whose biggest lament has been the lack of funds to market their products or pay for things that few volunteers want to do, the OBVIOUS solution would seem to be to ride the wave formed by larger competitors.

Conclusion
Firefox is certainly the best alternative browser I’ve come across. It makes Opera, its ally of convenience in a war against the common enemy Microsoft, seem downright lobotomized (cue Opera fans to burn me in effigy).

It must be admitted, though, that Firefox does have more support for "official" standards, as this link shows. I can’t say that all the missing features are equally important, and some I doubt I’d use at all. On the other hand, development environments are a bit like toolboxes. 15% of them you probably only use 0.2% of the time, but when that 0.2% comes up, it sure is great to have them.

So, as a middle ground, I’ll say Microsoft should implement more of the standard CSS attributes it lacks. As my example from the start of this article shows, though, there are areas where Firefox (and Opera and Safari, as neither browser handles my example well) could improve its treatment of workhorse CSS elements (the stuff most developers use 99% of the time). So, both have work to do.

Some in forums I’ve visited defend Firefox quirks by attacking the quality of the code it attempts to render (though, as you’ll note, my example was 100% valid HTML). In other words, "sloppy" code has no right to render properly.

That’s not only counter-productive, but ignores the reason people write HTML code in the first place. HTML is SUPPOSED to be easier to write than traditional user interfaces. HTML pages often have short lifespans, and thus HTML is supposed to be a forgiving environment which lends itself to rapid application development.

Most here would admit that IE does a better job of inferring proper behavior from incomplete or improperly-used HTML. That’s a GOOD thing, and Firefox would do well to learn the same lesson.

Lastly, as others have noted, Firefox is probably a safer security bet than IE. Don’t be lulled, however, into a false sense of complacency. Firefox certainly doesn’t use Browser Helper Objects, a technology misused by "spyware" vendors to monitor where a user goes on the internet (or, as I found on a friend’s computer, hijack it to strange locations). On the other hand, it’s not true that Firefox isn’t extensible. Binary installers (the standard way Browser Helper Objects find their way onto a Windows system) can install Firefox extensions just as easily as they install IE extensions.

In other words, the reason Firefox doesn’t face the threats IE faces is that they aren’t the browser used by 95% of consumers. That’s a bit like avoiding the threat of terrorism by moving to Pitcairn Island. It works for awhile, but if everyone has the same idea, your safety is compromised.

I LIKE the fact that IE, and Microsoft, face real competition. What I don’t like is the insistence that Web sites adapt to the upstart browser, not vice-versa. Remember, Microsoft has been down this path before, facing down a Netscape browser with a market share almost equal to that held by IE today. They chose to make IE fit the code developers produced, however non-standard, so that compatibility with IE involved little extra work. I see no reason why we shouldn’t expect the same of alternative browsers such as Firefox.

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Safari
I don't know what version of Safari you are using, but your Bah, Humbug page works
fine here. Blue bar at the top, left and bottom...resizing the window has no effect
either, I assume this is how it is meant to work, whereas FireFox goes off the bottom
like stated.... (Read the rest)
Posted by: kyussmondo Posted on: 03/28/07 You are currently: a Guest | | Terms of Use
Good article.  htotten | 11/04/04
No big deal...  Jomo_z | 11/04/04
Yes, John is right here, we need to lose the religion.  DonnieBoy | 11/04/04
Use ActiveX to Log In?  nucrash | 11/05/04
ActiveX  John CarrollZDNet Moderator | 11/05/04
IE and IQ.  Vily Clay | 11/06/04
lots of businesses NEED ActiveX: care to elaborate?  hipparchus2000 | 11/06/04
What is all the hubbub Bub?  Squawkbox | 11/04/04
But in many cases..  d_jedi | 11/04/04
Dohhhh! I knew that. I need to engage brain before opening mouth.  Squawkbox | 11/04/04
Why? Limits the number of posts.  Anton Philidor | 11/04/04
I will take that in advisement (NT)  Squawkbox | 11/04/04
John, I agree with just about everything you have to say..  d_jedi | 11/04/04
Not sure what the point is here  IT_User | 11/04/04
Re:Not sure what the point is here  d_jedi | 11/04/04
not worth the trouble?  hipparchus2000 | 11/06/04
Not All Web Developers  timoute | 11/04/04
Oh contraire!  htotten | 11/04/04
Financial institutions  webranger47 | 11/04/04
Here, here . . .  Sheeva | 11/05/04
My Banks work fine with FireFox  chemist109 | 11/08/04
Et touche'!  TechDiva_z | 11/08/04
I think the # of users is moot  voska | 11/04/04
Barrier of Entry  frgough@... | 11/04/04
O.O.  htotten | 11/04/04
Conclusion, again.  Anton Philidor | 11/04/04
I know, I know...  John CarrollZDNet Moderator | 11/04/04
Writing Style  edufx | 11/04/04
incomplete or improperly-used HTML  greatwhitepine | 11/04/04
Why make web developers jobs harder than needs be?  d_jedi | 11/04/04
Funny!  greatwhitepine | 11/04/04
Its not hard.  vdraken | 11/04/04
The difference is..  d_jedi | 11/04/04
Uh ... No.  coffeenite | 11/04/04
I know what I coded..  d_jedi | 11/04/04
Uh ... No.  coffeenite | 11/04/04
I think you're right..  d_jedi | 11/04/04
I Tried It With IE -- Guess What?  coffeenite | 11/04/04
Interesting..  d_jedi | 11/04/04
Here's What I Believe  coffeenite | 11/04/04
Good point..  d_jedi | 11/04/04
That all depends ...  coffeenite | 11/04/04
Re: that all depends..  d_jedi | 11/04/04
Re: I know what I coded..  MigrateNow | 11/06/04
So?  vdraken | 11/04/04
Re: So?  d_jedi | 11/04/04
Doesnt change anything.  vdraken | 11/04/04
I agree..  d_jedi | 11/04/04
Because....  NarGemini | 11/07/04
How far will you take it?  lengua99 | 11/08/04
Most site authors are not programmers  jrerickson | 11/05/04
HTML is a DTD of SGML  hipparchus2000 | 11/06/04
Inferrence leads to error  Robert Crocker | 11/04/04
And the...  alanc5 | 11/04/04
Clever?  greatwhitepine | 11/04/04
You're right and you're wrong  seosamh_z | 11/04/04
you're all wrong  Jamik | 11/04/04
What are you talking about  seosamh_z | 11/05/04
I have to agree...  greatwhitepine | 11/05/04
Not sure what the point is here  IT_User | 11/04/04
Responsibility  Anton Philidor | 11/04/04
The point is ....  LGLisle | 11/04/04
Flocking  Anton Philidor | 11/04/04
its more than html  splinter_z | 11/04/04
Not Caring ... or Not Knowing  ChuTw | 11/04/04
Marketing FireFox  Anton Philidor | 11/04/04
That's Why Standards Are Important  coffeenite | 11/04/04
Developers ARE writing to one standard  IT_User | 11/04/04
To a point  seosamh_z | 11/04/04
Huh?  coffeenite | 11/04/04
Explained  seosamh_z | 11/04/04
Maybe they should get off their lazy A$$'s  middle of nowhere | 11/04/04
Clarification needed  Anton Philidor | 11/04/04
Clarification  d_jedi | 11/04/04
Do sites find workarounds...  Anton Philidor | 11/04/04
In my experience, yes..  d_jedi | 11/04/04
Some Clarification  John CarrollZDNet Moderator | 11/04/04
Optimism  Anton Philidor | 11/04/04
You are scaring me John!  greatwhitepine | 11/05/04
Standards and alternatives to IE  Anton Philidor | 11/05/04
Standards and extentions  az firebird | 11/05/04
Willfully backward  Anton Philidor | 11/05/04
Wrong.  NarGemini | 11/06/04
John, I really liked your article...  jim_oflaherty_jr | 11/04/04
Hey, Don't you mean 6%... and "IE's not a browser app"...  el1jones | 11/04/04
Margin of error.  Anton Philidor | 11/04/04
ms is not concerned  splinter_z | 11/04/04
Hype Machine.  alanc5 | 11/04/04
Why on Earth  Roger Ramjet | 11/04/04
Why Not Use <ocument.All() ? Easy ...  coffeenite | 11/04/04
splinter  splinter_z | 11/04/04
Get used to it  voska | 11/04/04
hmmm  iyerganeshram | 11/04/04
You may not agree with it..  vdraken | 11/04/04
I Agree  coffeenite | 11/04/04
Regarding Sloppy  John CarrollZDNet Moderator | 11/04/04
The funny thing is..  Patrick Jones | 11/04/04
Regarding Regading Sloppy  coffeenite | 11/05/04
Sloppy vs Syntax  az firebird | 11/05/04
Sloppy IS bad!  MigrateNow | 11/06/04
You haven't got a glue  Tuntematon | 11/08/04
Prima Donna vs. Pragmatist  jaoifalkjsdao | 11/05/04
html is only part of the story  splinter_z | 11/04/04
Use IE. Be my guest. Don't call me to remove your Spyware...  BitTwiddler | 11/04/04
Agreed My Brother....  itanalyst | 11/04/04
I use IE and NEVER get Spyware  DalyDose | 11/05/04
Tell them to fix it!  MigrateNow | 11/06/04
Standards  openMind | 11/04/04
Re: Standard  John CarrollZDNet Moderator | 11/04/04
Ooops...  Fred Fredrickson | 11/04/04
Rejectionist  Anton Philidor | 11/04/04
Oh, Anton...  Fred Fredrickson | 11/07/04
Extended  Anton Philidor | 11/08/04
IE's market share...  John CarrollZDNet Moderator | 11/04/04
How do they know???  DalyDose | 11/05/04
properly layer your software John  hipparchus2000 | 11/06/04
Some Musings  Roger Ramjet | 11/04/04
Problem using frames?  Robert Crocker | 11/04/04
Re: Frames  John CarrollZDNet Moderator | 11/04/04
No  Robert Crocker | 11/05/04
Have you filed a bug report?  rpmyers1 | 11/04/04
Sigh . . .  DJGibbon | 11/04/04
i agree  splinter_z | 11/04/04
height: 100%;  sidesh0w | 11/04/04
Re: Height  John CarrollZDNet Moderator | 11/04/04
re: height  eLurker | 11/04/04
site with some examples  eLurker | 11/04/04
that's.........  todbran@... | 11/04/04
Please refer to W3C doc before you comment such things  wolfding | 11/08/04
Re[2]: Height  sidesh0w | 11/08/04
Translations  whisperycat | 11/04/04
While we're discussing web browsers..  d_jedi | 11/04/04
quickly  shadowjk | 11/05/04
Always good for a laugh.......95%?...Sure.....  LazLong | 11/04/04
So, Windows isn't in the 90%'s anymore?  Anton Philidor | 11/04/04
So you want proof?  Fred Fredrickson | 11/04/04
Proof???  DalyDose | 11/05/04
I was speaking of OS sales from OEM's  LazLong | 11/05/04
w3c's opinion on your code...  xactoguy | 11/04/04
Yes, but being right does not mean you win.  DonnieBoy | 11/04/04
Yes, but which deviation?  shadowjk | 11/05/04
I think I see your problem?  B.O.F.H. | 11/04/04
I disagree.  Immanuel Tranz-Mischen | 11/08/04
Proprietary vs Open Standards  doc_savage | 11/04/04
Missed the point  seosamh_z | 11/04/04
Make Full Support for Industry Standards a Priority  derek.berube@... | 11/05/04
Functionality vs. security  Michael Kelly | 11/04/04
Scratching head...  John CarrollZDNet Moderator | 11/04/04
Also scratching head  Michael Kelly | 11/05/04
Reason we are both scratching heads  John CarrollZDNet Moderator | 11/05/04
I understand that  Michael Kelly | 11/05/04
Why can't I ever remember that ZDNet rewrote the rules on html (NT)  Michael Kelly | 11/05/04
apparently not 100% valid html.  hipparchus2000 | 11/06/04
as a developer, I dont want 10 browsers in the market  davecazz | 11/04/04
Doesn't mean you have to test all 10  John L. Ries | 11/04/04
What??  NarGemini | 11/06/04
To draw reasonable conclussions  michael-t | 11/04/04
Woo hoo.  christophilus | 11/04/04
and a deaf person can read it ok?  hipparchus2000 | 11/06/04
Yeah, right  yosemite91 | 01/14/07
Portable Firefox...Check It Out!!  itanalyst | 11/04/04
A protable non-standards compliant browser? No thanks.  No_Ax_to_Grind | 11/04/04
An Overbloated Piece Of Crap That Causes Malicous Harm To My Computer???  itanalyst | 11/04/04
Let me explain it for you then.  No_Ax_to_Grind | 11/04/04
Let me explain it for you then.  AmusedAtItAll | 11/04/04
Ah, ever the lack of skill...  No_Ax_to_Grind | 11/04/04
More compliant than IE 6  CobraA1 | 11/04/04
Very interesting posts indeed.  No_Ax_to_Grind | 11/04/04
I'll Take A Little Incompatibility Anyday  itanalyst | 11/04/04
Ah, unless of course it's MS, then it's WHINE TIME.  No_Ax_to_Grind | 11/04/04
bitty is correct  AmusedAtItAll | 11/04/04
FF is the best thing for IE users  Richard Flude | 11/04/04
Stop WHINING  JasonL31 | 11/07/04
I can agree with you.  Anton Philidor | 11/04/04
Version numbers don't mean a thing  MigrateNow | 11/06/04
from what i can tell  eLurker | 11/04/04
Good standards, bad standards, doesn't really matter.  No_Ax_to_Grind | 11/04/04
ok, but my point is  eLurker | 11/04/04
I think No_Ax's point is...  Michael Kelly | 11/04/04
i think  eLurker | 11/04/04
No, you seem to be trying to avoid the real issue.  No_Ax_to_Grind | 11/04/04
No, you seem to be trying to avoid understanding the real issue  hillrunr | 11/04/04
it seems  eLurker | 11/04/04
None so blind...  Fred Fredrickson | 11/05/04
"I am not an HTML guy" giving HTML advice??  CobraA1 | 11/05/04
Amaya compliance...  RDry01 | 11/05/04
I have my doubts about his test page  CobraA1 | 11/05/04
What "Standard"???  DalyDose | 11/05/04
It's all a matter of degree  Fred Fredrickson | 11/04/04
100% valid HTML???  mmings | 11/04/04
Amen To That!  itanalyst | 11/04/04
Couldn't have said it better!  zaine_ridling | 11/04/04
Netscape  gaelicfog@... | 11/04/04
Firefox *is* Netscape  John L. Ries | 11/04/04
Firefox, bah humbug  cryan@... | 11/04/04
Sounds like a settings issue  TechDiva_z | 11/08/04
w3c....  jrtotten | 11/04/04
It's just bad  dolph0291 | 11/04/04
Browser  betelgeux | 11/04/04
Then use an add-in that gives you tabbed browsing.  Anton Philidor | 11/05/04
I quess Linux users need to install IE then , HUH!  mpjbo | 11/04/04
Fine...  John CarrollZDNet Moderator | 11/04/04
Re: Fine  John L. Ries | 11/04/04
The mythical 95% rule...  Fred Fredrickson | 11/04/04
Pick your source of stats.  Anton Philidor | 11/04/04
Credibility is the issue  Fred Fredrickson | 11/05/04
AOL uses IE only  Anton Philidor | 11/05/04
Stats are misleading  IT Scion | 11/08/04
IE's market share...  John CarrollZDNet Moderator | 11/04/04
Once again very funny...  LazLong | 11/05/04
Choose your poison  Fred Fredrickson | 11/05/04
bah humbug to IE crap!  johnlb2002 | 11/04/04
CSS vs table + try these links  ivanii | 11/04/04
Works fine in Safari  middle of nowhere | 11/04/04
Of course, but not in IE  ivanii | 11/04/04
I don't agree  todbran@... | 11/04/04
Agree and Disagree  DalyDose | 11/05/04
Simple economics  middle of nowhere | 11/04/04
Not so simple...  DalyDose | 11/05/04
MS IE like SUV  TrustMe_z | 11/04/04
Why not Maxthon?  Mozzi Carl04 | 11/04/04
Maxthon is IE.  Anton Philidor | 11/04/04
Convinced me  rthn | 11/04/04
Firefox  littlebrochureco@... | 11/04/04
Problem with viewing bah humbug  euro_z | 11/04/04
Sorry fixed problem for you  euro_z | 11/04/04
CSS  John CarrollZDNet Moderator | 11/04/04
dive in and fix it, quit complaining  hipparchus2000 | 11/06/04
Let me get this straight...  Brian@... | 11/04/04
Hype and Open Source Shouldn't Mix  jfsayre@... | 11/04/04
What a laugh  Richard Flude | 11/04/04
Re:  John CarrollZDNet Moderator | 11/04/04
Re: Re:  Richard Flude | 11/04/04
HTML  John CarrollZDNet Moderator | 11/04/04
It's the attitutude!  BMoon | 11/05/04
You say attitude, I say I'm right  Richard Flude | 11/06/04
Now HTML is elevated to a desktop application development language  Richard Flude | 11/06/04
And what's with this  Richard Flude | 11/06/04
in my opinion jc is fragged by richard  hipparchus2000 | 11/06/04
95% ?  BMoon | 11/07/04
Whilst you're not legally required to write for the chinese  Richard Flude | 11/07/04
Learn to code!  Sanguinemoon | 11/04/04
so mozilla.org cant code?  jimk_z | 11/04/04
oops  jimk_z | 11/04/04
I know how you feel  Richard Flude | 11/04/04
Another add-on.  Anton Philidor | 11/05/04
Your implication is wrong  wresnick | 11/05/04
Easy fix  wresnick | 11/05/04
so mozilla.org cant code?  pjones | 11/05/04
Good article...GOOD POINTS  jimk_z | 11/04/04
huh?  CobraA1 | 11/05/04
Firefox isn't Netscape  MigrateNow | 11/06/04
Well, rather, Netscape is Mozilla, then  ischorr | 11/06/04
I just hate it when people say they found probems but can't list one  hipparchus2000 | 11/06/04
eh  CobraA1 | 11/05/04
Bah-humbug page isn't compliant  CobraA1 | 11/05/04
Wish I could edit posts  CobraA1 | 11/05/04
More than technology  Falconer_z | 11/05/04
tha testpage  M.Fridholm | 11/05/04
Yes/No/Cancel dialogs  cliffmcc_z | 11/05/04
Spin  John CarrollZDNet Moderator | 11/05/04
Laughable  DJGibbon | 11/14/04
I love FF!!!  adkmom | 11/05/04
It's still a Preview Release  bruzr | 11/05/04
Bah, Humbug test link.  bigcheese48 | 11/05/04
Re: Bah, Humbug test link.  MigrateNow | 11/06/04
Opera & Netscape?  rwire@... | 11/05/04
FireFox---- WHY?  Golfer_z | 11/05/04
Yes, why?  ischorr | 11/06/04
Firefox, Opera, IE  jtimouri | 11/05/04
not W3C valid  Pearly37 | 11/05/04
Again...  John CarrollZDNet Moderator | 11/05/04
no it isn't, check with the the validator  hipparchus2000 | 11/06/04
Good Article...I agree  pmcm | 11/05/04
care to point to the pages  hipparchus2000 | 11/06/04
What about Mozilla?  bj70117@... | 11/05/04
Nice article with many good points!  jrr@... | 11/05/04
Firefox  gmunn4283@... | 11/05/04
Re: Firefox  MigrateNow | 11/06/04
Compatible Replacement  esblake | 11/05/04
Good and close but . . .  sher1 | 11/05/04
Firefox Not My Bad  denkidr | 11/05/04
"Embrace and Extend"  howcheng | 11/05/04
Check Netscape 7.02  morgan@... | 11/05/04
Well put.  bertb | 11/05/04
Final conclusion on "bah-humbug" "test" page  CobraA1 | 11/05/04
wont work  eLurker | 11/05/04
Who's In Charge?  ambrose | 11/05/04
What I like about Firefox  chasmagc@... | 11/05/04
Harsh, but true  joemacd | 11/05/04
Harsh, and false.  wresnick | 11/05/04
I see where you're coming from, but...  M.Fridholm | 11/05/04
FF has more issues than that but....  IT Scion | 11/05/04
Even so...  lauszy@... | 11/05/04
why write it down?  amccoy@... | 11/05/04
long memories...  john.gruber@... | 11/05/04
CSS Trick (yours?)  skeeter_z | 11/05/04
no  eLurker | 11/05/04
FireFox Bah Humbug  pjones | 11/05/04
Fire Fix...  esblake | 11/05/04
bah?  sapper_z | 11/05/04
Remember IE once forced changes on us ...  VSexton | 11/05/04
if yr "an old HTML hand-coder" ...  edgarde_z | 11/05/04
You complain about standards...  buran | 11/05/04
What If you coded correctly for Moz/FF would it not work in IE also..?  LazLong | 11/05/04
possibly not  eLurker | 11/05/04
Way off regarding firefox  pearsonz | 11/05/04
Standard  Update victim | 11/05/04
Re:  John CarrollZDNet Moderator | 11/05/04
"Standardization around one product is natural in software"  hipparchus2000 | 11/06/04
MS standards vs. W3C standards  TechDiva_z | 11/08/04
Firefox  Donn_z | 11/05/04
When MS offers IE for Linux, at no charge...  Rick S._z | 11/05/04
Your problem is Bugzilla # 235558  Rick S._z | 11/05/04
A web dominated by Microsoft is not a good thing!  dezydery | 11/06/04
Re:  John CarrollZDNet Moderator | 11/06/04
save money?  hipparchus2000 | 11/06/04
As noted...  John CarrollZDNet Moderator | 11/07/04
yes, but  eLurker | 11/07/04
Re:  pasta_z | 11/07/04
Re: Re:  John CarrollZDNet Moderator | 11/07/04
Firefox  zubenal@... | 11/06/04
What's standard  B. Dube | 11/06/04
You seem not to understand ...  zapyon | 11/06/04
Understanding  John CarrollZDNet Moderator | 11/06/04
in that case there would be no html  hipparchus2000 | 11/06/04
You misunderstand  John CarrollZDNet Moderator | 11/07/04
re:  eLurker | 11/07/04
Come on Carroll  Tim Patterson | 11/06/04
Small detail ommission  wanderson | 11/06/04
JC  meetwo | 11/06/04
IE support  JDThompson | 11/06/04
Re: IE Support  John CarrollZDNet Moderator | 11/06/04
bent over BACKWARDS to ensure old apps worked under Windows XP  hipparchus2000 | 11/06/04
Re: bent  John CarrollZDNet Moderator | 11/07/04
Mac World and Win32API  hipparchus2000 | 11/07/04
Breaking Millions of Web Sites  Immanuel Tranz-Mischen | 11/08/04
I agree  deadpan227 | 11/10/04
Explorer. bah humbug  laerien | 11/06/04
What version of IE?  adodo | 11/06/04
Mac IE  John CarrollZDNet Moderator | 11/06/04
Listen to yourself  Richard Flude | 11/06/04
Mac IE...  John CarrollZDNet Moderator | 11/07/04
So to recap  Richard Flude | 11/08/04
John, just a point on the time is money thing  brand police | 11/15/04
If you don't know any Mac users who use IE...  escoles@... | 11/10/04
The point being...  bsmojver | 11/06/04
idiot  dantrevino | 11/06/04
I'm sorry...but I must say.  thecompanyblue | 11/07/04
re : Firefox, bah humbug  JasonL31 | 11/07/04
Admit it John, you're an MS fan boy  betelgeuse68 | 11/07/04
Implemented features in IE  pasta_z | 11/07/04
Spyware/Adware threats are the fault of the USER  politik | 11/07/04
No, it's not.  escoles@... | 11/10/04
Wrong  gk_ | 11/07/04
Business perspective  WhoIsDaMan | 11/07/04
Re: Business  John CarrollZDNet Moderator | 11/07/04
He said "10% or more"!  CobraA1 | 11/07/04
well...  M.Fridholm | 11/08/04
Another Weakness of Firefox  p.crawford@... | 11/07/04
XP takes most of that space  CobraA1 | 11/07/04
Cobra has it right but it's worse than that  M.Fridholm | 11/08/04
I'm confused.  Immanuel Tranz-Mischen | 11/08/04
That's funny!  dingletec_z | 12/25/04
Another tub-thumping rally cry for MS hegemony  whisperycat | 11/08/04
Running a business with web applications  g2shops | 11/08/04
You've been mislead  CobraA1 | 11/08/04
Wait a minute.  Immanuel Tranz-Mischen | 11/08/04
The Check Test  imforumman | 11/08/04
Re: Check  John CarrollZDNet Moderator | 11/09/04
Sorry John...  dingletec_z | 12/25/04
TCP/IP  Brent R Brian | 11/08/04
It's about the consequences  tomike@... | 11/08/04
Frothing Rage?  Immanuel Tranz-Mischen | 11/08/04
Re:  John CarrollZDNet Moderator | 11/09/04
Open Standards & KHTML v. Gecko v. Opera  escoles@... | 11/10/04
Point Missed by Many  Deacon336 | 11/08/04
Point understood, just laughed at  Richard Flude | 11/08/04
Conforming to non-standards  ruskyz@... | 11/08/04
A couple of comments  Immanuel Tranz-Mischen | 11/08/04
You're being overselective: IE creates problems too...  leechman | 11/08/04
If you'd just use an iframe, it would work everywhere.  escoles@... | 11/10/04
Firefox, No Problems  MrSteveO | 11/10/04
Firefox bah humbug  lazyj1@... | 11/10/04
Firefox bah humbug  lazyj1@... | 11/10/04
Firefox vs. I.E.  edmatarrese@... | 11/11/04
I hate to break the bad news  M.Fridholm | 11/12/04
Finally, an actual review  dman65 | 11/12/04
Hmmm  M.Fridholm | 11/12/04
Not a review really  M.Fridholm | 11/12/04
Darn  M.Fridholm | 11/12/04
rubbish  57js | 11/14/04
security security security  anujit | 11/14/04
security security security  anujit | 11/14/04
Been using it for about a year...  2cooldad | 11/19/04
Why Firefox?  vince7 | 11/19/04
Not really, but...  M.Fridholm | 11/20/04
This article loses all credibility  thxmadness@... | 11/21/04
You still don't get it.  george_ou | 11/26/04
No it is you who miss the point  M.Fridholm | 11/28/04
But IE prints many webpages wrongly  Wm. Brown | 11/29/04
tables are dead  fryweed | 12/09/04
IE,Firefox etc.  Psyber | 12/13/04
A Better Firefox Fix?  tpavlic_z | 12/20/04
IE sets the standard  dingletec_z | 12/25/04
Safari  kyussmondo | 03/28/07

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