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By John Carroll
Posted on ZDNet News: Nov 18, 2003 1:23:00 PM

COMMENTARY--I’m no fan of antitrust. That should be clear from past articles (my second article on ZDNet was named, rather melodramatically, "Death to Antitrust") where I’ve outlined several reasons why I believe antitrust policy is outdated and detrimental to economic health.

Contrary to popular belief, I’m not emperor of the world, and lots of people think antitrust is very important to the proper functioning of modern economies. The U.S. Government obviously falls into that category, as does European Commission, who last week conducted hearings where Microsoft and its opponents argued over remedies proposed by the European antitrust authorities.

I take less issue with the actions of antitrust regulators, however, if they make it a point to consider the original purpose of antitrust, which was to benefit consumers using competitive markets as a means to that end.

In my post-Tunney comments (which was originally a letter sent to State Attorneys General involved in the case, as well as the Microsoft legal team and Judge Kollar-Kotelly), I argued that requiring Microsoft to open protocols related to interoperability was in keeping with the original spirit of antitrust, more in keeping with the lessons of the last 100 years of economic history and vastly superior to the structural remedies previously advocated by Judge Jackson. Along those lines, I recommend that the European Commission concentrate on mitigating market power through the enforcement of more open desktop and server interoperability protocols and reject attempts to take software design decisions out of Microsoft’s hands.

What not to do--The Commission’s Media Player Proposals
The European Commission understands the difficulties faced by competitors when Microsoft decided to integrate a new feature into Windows. Given that every copy of Windows ships with the new feature, third parties must convince end users that their product is sufficiently better than the existing, integrated product that they are willing to download a replacement. Though this is certainly easier today compared to 10 years ago before the internet revolution reshaped global commerce, it still requires interest on the part of the individual.

This is a valid issue. However, making life easy for competitors is not the goal of antitrust. Consumers derive a number of benefits from the presence of features integrated into Windows that outweigh the heightened competitive pressures faced by third-party vendors of those features.

Gains from API consistency
As I noted in my Tunney comments, software needs standards because software lacks natural levels of compatibility. Application Programming Interfaces, or APIs, are the means by which programmers reuse code built by other programmers. However, there is infinite variability in the definition of an API. To send mail, one vendor might choose to create an operation named "SendMail," while another might call it "_SendSmtpMail." Furthermore, the types of data either operation requires to perform its task (a.k.a. "parameters" in programmer-speak) will vary between the two operations.

This search for standards explains why consolidation around one dominant API has happened repeatedly throughout the history of the computer industry. Standard APIs imply a larger market for products which adhere to that API, enabling boosted developer competency and an increase in compatible product. In the past, IBM defined the APIs for the industry, a role filled today, at least on the desktop, by Microsoft. Linux is rapidly becoming the center of the Unix programming domain, and Apache has all but become the de facto standard for web servers.

Integrating the latest technology behind new APIs is one of the tasks required of standard-setting companies or organizations. This enables developers to use that technology easily without having to become masters of its idiosyncrasies, enabling them to concentrate on logic specific to their application. In the case of Windows, Microsoft included networking and a primitive web browser with Windows 95, Mail handling functionality through Outlook Express, Instant Messaging through MSN Messenger, and media playing as far back as Windows 3.0.

This integration leads to software that can assume the presence of high-level technology features that conforms to a particular API. Intuit’s tax software is built atop the Internet Explorer HTML rendering engine, a product that I’ve noted in the past is more API than client browser tool. Similarly, a number of companies reuse Microsoft media playing components, among them any product that uses DirectShow to render video to a screen (DirectShow is now THE media API for Windows), or more specifically, the repackaged Napster music service. This leads to more feature-rich applications, which benefits consumers.

It’s worth noting that MediaPlayer IS capable of playing media in formats besides Microsoft’s own, something far more important than which client application an end-user uses. MediaPlayer is built atop Microsoft’s DirectShow pluggable media handling technology. Plug-ins exist for MP3, as well as QuickTime and the Real Audio format. In other words, third parties have a relatively easy time making themselves a part of the Windows media playing API. They just have to provide a DirectShow "filter" (in DirectShow parlance) for their media format, and end users can view/hear the new media stream using Media Player.

Gains from market building
Most people who use a television know next to nothing about how it works. This doesn’t mean, however, that regular consumers shouldn’t use TV sets.

The same applies to regular computer users. Most consumers view computers as a tool. They want to be able to run the software they find at the local computer store or download off the internet. They want to use the hardware that is available. They don’t tend to explore all the capabilities of their computer, simply because they have other things to do with their lives.

This means they aren’t likely to use new technology unless someone shows them the ropes. In that regard, integrated products act like training wheels for the non-technical user. They learn what kinds of things are available on the web by using Internet Explorer. They try out instant messaging using MSN Messenger. They experiment with digital media using the integrated Media Player product. Furthermore, they can be assured that any computer they encounter running a particular version of Windows will have the same high-level features.

This creates market opportunities for companies that build ancillary products that require the popularity of certain technology. Content providers have new opportunities due to the presence of a unified market capable of consuming their product.

Many analysts have opined that the lack of broadband applications has held back widespread adoption of broadband in the United States. Microsoft’s inclusion of new high-level features into their OS builds markets by creating a consumption point for technology, generating revenue for third parties and building a large and profitable software ecosystem that provides lots of jobs, in Europe and elsewhere.

Remember, antitrust is about consumer benefit
Non-technical users eventually become more experienced with new technology, and might find the default product lacks features they want. Such people might decide to go out and download alternative products. This was certainly the case when media player was the "lobotomized" product which existed in previous versions of Windows. Such products served as poor competition to more professional products, and experienced users quickly went in hunt of them. In this case, integration drove demand for third party products by introducing non-technical users to new areas of technology in greater numbers than these third parties might have managed on their own.

The inclusion of product only becomes a problem for Microsoft’s critics when the product becomes sufficiently good that regular users have less of a need to try alternatives. Being "too good" has been identified as problematic by American courts in the past. The Honorable Learned Hand famously stated in his Alcoa Aluminum antitrust ruling:

"we can think of no more effective exclusion than progressively to embrace each new opportunity as it opened, and to face every newcomer with new capacity already geared into a great organization, having the advantage of experience, trade connections, and the elite of personnel."

Consequently, this ruling has been widely criticized, and for good reason. It actually suggests that companies should NOT make high quality, low cost products for their customers as it is "anti-competitive" if they are so good that life becomes very hard for competitors. In other words, the Alcoa ruling lost sight of the original purpose of antitrust. The preservation of competition for its own sake became the underlying principle, not benefit to consumers.

In short, if Microsoft makes such good integrated product that consumers have less incentive to try alternatives, then that is GOOD for consumers.

Never forget, however, that alternatives DO exist to every product in Microsoft’s software library. Linux, the Mac OS, FreeBSD, Netscape, Mozilla, Opera, RealPlayer, Apple’s QuickTime player, WordPerfect, StarOffice, etc. ALL exist. The "problem" with Microsoft isn’t that competitors do not exist. Rather, the issue is whether consumers choose to use competitors’ products.

Part of the reason competitors always exist in software markets is that software isn’t like airplane manufacturing, an industry that requires billions in up-front costs. Software has low barriers to entry due to low cost tools (PCs, plenty of free development tools) and the human skill orientation of software development. Microsoft has often been considered paranoid due to its constant fear that the company that will replace it lies just over the horizon. To some extents that fear is justified, as software evolves VERY swiftly due to low barriers to entry.

Most of the industry considers Linux a serious competitive threat to Windows. I don’t imagine Microsoft fails to take Linux seriously, and neither should antitrust regulators.

Remember the power of free markets
Free markets work for one simple reason: because individuals have more knowledge than planners can ever hope to gather. This isn’t because the people charged with making economy-wide decisions are stupid. Rather, just as an individual responsible for manufacturing TV sets knows less about what is required to run a steel mill, far-removed planners cannot know as well as individuals their particular needs, or the circumstances of individual lives. Individuals spend their entire lives living inside their own skin (at least, I do). This is "division of labor" at its most distilled, and represents why relying on free individuals to make decisions in markets works better.

Individuals make better buying decisions as well as better producing decisions. In other words, people who work at Oracle are better able to make proper decisions related to the Oracle database product. People at Novell are better able to make proper decisions with respect to their directory services product. Lastly, people at Microsoft are better able to make proper decisions with respect to Microsoft products.

When the Commission suggests that Microsoft redesign their products, they are bypassing division of labor and OF NECESSITY making a less informed decision than anything Microsoft could make. Like I said, this isn’t because commissioners are less intelligent than the general population. Rather, it is because commissioners don’t spend every working day of every year getting to know the insides and outsides of Microsoft products.

There are a number of reasons why Media Playing functionality exists in Windows that have relevance today, and that I’ve mentioned. You would see where they are going with the technology, however, if you attended Microsoft’s recent Professional Developer’s Conference in Los Angeles. The ability to use media will be extended to every aspect of the Longhorn user interface (Longhorn is the next generation of the Windows operating system), leading to richer and more interactive user interfaces. Such is the advantage of integrating advanced media playing architectures into Windows, as it enables media to be used in ways that standalone applications of the sort envisioned by the European Commission cannot enable.

These are all things that Microsoft developers, as "experts" from a division of labor standpoint in Microsoft products, well understand. 100 years of economic history has shown that the best approach to economic management is to leave choices as much as possible up to individuals. Along those lines, I suggest that the Commission should leave choices related to the design of Microsoft’s products up to Microsoft’s own developers.

Regarding the inclusion of competitors’ products in Windows
This isn’t per se as serious an issue, though it sets a nasty precedent. Imagine a judge ordering J.K. Rowlings to include short stories from lesser-known fantasy writers because of her "unfair" power in the fantasy book market. What if Dell was forced to offer IPaq and Palm handhelds as add-on options to new PCs instead of the Dell-branded Axim Pocket PC product? What if independent consultants such as myself were forced to include documents praising other consultants in business presentations because it is "unfair" that I get all the attention.

No one would ever suggest doing any of these things. It’s not categorically different, however, than forcing Microsoft to ship with competitors’ products. Such a policy is justified by the theoretical need to attack "monopoly" status (I don’t have a monopoly on consulting). It doesn’t make the concept any less weird, though, or less a serious imposition on the economic freedom of large numbers of people.

Would companies whose products were ordered included in Windows be required to pitch in to the costs of developing Windows? If not, why not? Microsoft pays to have its own products included in Windows because it is completely responsible for all costs associated with Windows development. Why wouldn’t makers of third-party products which Microsoft is forced to include, and test, in Windows, be required to pitch in?

Furthermore, why can’t companies pay PC manufacturers to ensure inclusion? That is an option on Windows PCs that doesn’t exist for platforms made by Apple and Sun. Apple and Sun both make the hardware that runs their proprietary operating systems, whereas Microsoft does not. Sun has already used this to great effect, paying companies such as Dell, Gateway and HP to ship with their Java Virtual Machine pre-installed. What are the odds of Microsoft convincing Apple or Sun to do the same thing with .NET?

How would companies get the right to be included in Windows? Would the decision be made behind closed doors or out in the open where everyone can see it? Either way, is not the commission inviting lawsuits from those parties who feel they were unfairly left out? Such conflicts are easily avoided by stating on principle that free companies in free markets have the right to include whatever they want in their own products.

The proper approach - deal with Microsoft’s market power
Dominance in the software industry is a natural and NECESSARY part of that market (note the term "dominance" as opposed to "monopoly." There ARE multiple alternatives to Microsoft’s products. People just aren’t using them as much). The software market has not been without a dominant player for its entire history, and unless software stops evolving and technology becomes sufficiently well understood that consistent and universal standards can be made with a reasonable expectation of accuracy and long-term applicability, will remain so for the foreseeable future.

That does not mean, however, that the Commission cannot do something useful as the result of their investigation. At the end of the American court case, it was decided (by a Clinton appointed judge) that the best approach would be to require Microsoft to open more protocols in order to facilitate interoperability. She explicitly rejected, however, the notion that courts would call the shots with respect to design decisions in Microsoft’s products (in other words, no requirement to remove products from Windows). In so doing, she ensured that competitors would have an easier time interoperating with a product whose dominance was based in the need for standards (and from which consumers derive a number of benefits), but not impinge on what Microsoft is best qualified to do, which is make decisions for its own products.

Should the Commission take a similar approach, Microsoft is highly likely to go along with it. They negotiated in conjunction with America’s Department of Justice the settlement approved by Judge Kollar-Kotelly. Likewise, Microsoft has shown a strong interest in putting their antitrust tribulations behind them. What appears non-negotiable, however, is their right to design their own products as they see fit.

Requiring that Microsoft open protocols in order to simplify interoperability does not restrict their design freedom, as well it shouldn’t. Furthermore, the Commission could walk away with a solution to this case now, rather than waiting for several years, as would surely be the case if they decide to require changes to Windows. Microsoft fought tooth and nail to ensure the inclusion of Internet Explorer in Windows. I expect that they would fight just as hard to maintain Media Player in Windows.

Conclusion
The United States spent over four years fighting a similar antitrust case in its own courts, and a Clinton-appointed judge (the same administration that STARTED the original antitrust suit) came to the conclusion that judicial control of software design decisions was a bad idea.

I think it’s just as bad an idea in Europe.

Deal with Microsoft’s market power, and trust that markets chose to standardize on Windows for a reason. Consumers and producers (programmers, hardware makers, etc.) derive benefit from a large, ubiquitous market mostly unified around a single platform. Governments, who can’t gather enough information to compare with what exists in the mind of every buying and producing citizen, should be loath to tamper with it.

biography
John Carroll is a software engineer now living in Geneva, Switzerland. He specializes in the design and development of distributed systems using Java and .Net. He is also the founder of Turtleneck Software.

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Is John qualified to talk all these?
looking at the John Carroll biography and at this article, it is evedent he not qualified enough for talking about "markets... dominance... monopoly" at an national and internationl level.

ZDNet standards are falling down.... (Read the rest)
Posted by: krisan Posted on: 02/15/04 You are currently: a Guest | | Terms of Use
M$ can't compete on merit  screaming silence | 11/18/03
Hmm  Delaware Boy | 11/18/03
W W W . L I N U X C A D . C O M  unixguy@... | 11/18/03
I rather enjoyed that...  Delaware Boy | 11/18/03
I know many  voska | 11/18/03
Yagotta Be Kidding me..  Delaware Boy | 11/18/03
RE: Yagotta Be Kidding me..  WhoIsDaMan | 11/19/03
Mr. Carroll is about as clueless as you are.  DonnieBoy | 11/18/03
I wave a poppy seed bagel in your general direction..  Delaware Boy | 11/18/03
So you do not understand the network effect???  DonnieBoy | 11/18/03
Tell me then,  Patrick Jones | 11/18/03
uh, because it's by design?  Delaware Boy | 11/18/03
You forgot one item  NoB$ | 11/18/03
you speak as if being non-removeable is an advantage  ryusen | 11/18/03
No doughnut for you  Patrick Jones | 11/18/03
Because...  Fred Fredrickson | 11/20/03
PS...  Fred Fredrickson | 11/20/03
You're still thinking monolithic app  John CarrollZDNet Moderator | 11/18/03
I only see one problem here  voska | 11/18/03
Quicktime Plugin for Media Player  Delaware Boy | 11/18/03
How about WMF plugin for QuickTime?  Fred Fredrickson | 11/18/03
Ok, but where do you draw the line???  DonnieBoy | 11/18/03
Competition vs. Consumer Protection  rthorat@... | 11/18/03
but...  ryusen | 11/18/03
BOGUS ARGUMENT! "Consumer protection?!?" No, "Free Markets"  dicktaurus@... | 11/18/03
Useless post...  rthorat@... | 11/19/03
RE: Useless post...  WhoIsDaMan | 11/19/03
problem with standards  gnome n. clayture | 11/18/03
You are still missing the point...  Patrick Jones | 11/18/03
The problem...  John CarrollZDNet Moderator | 11/19/03
my perspective  in-DUH-vidual | 11/19/03
MS Hidden API Interfaces...  dsentman@... | 11/20/03
The problem..  Patrick Jones | 11/19/03
Not that definition of performance  John CarrollZDNet Moderator | 11/19/03
Some agreement...  Patrick Jones | 11/19/03
Blackbox Standards  in-DUH-vidual | 11/19/03
Hypocrisy  Harry Bardal | 11/18/03
Re: You're still thinking monolithic app  Mark Miller | 12/02/03
Bolted in...  rthorat@... | 11/18/03
open stadards  ryusen | 11/18/03
Re: Open Standards  rthorat@... | 11/18/03
well...  ryusen | 11/18/03
Re: well...  rthorat@... | 11/18/03
that noble dream  ryusen | 11/18/03
Re: Open Standards  mike_ohanlon_z | 11/19/03
Nice thought...  Patrick Jones | 11/18/03
How many times does Microsoft have to be caught infringing?  ordaj@... | 11/18/03
You're too funny.. happy  Delaware Boy | 11/18/03
Great article.  rthorat@... | 11/18/03
Not really  Fred Fredrickson | 11/18/03
History's largest criminal monopoly...  moiety | 11/18/03
And if you can't beat 'em...  John CarrollZDNet Moderator | 11/18/03
Doh!!!  Delaware Boy | 11/18/03
it's hardly name-calling when  moiety | 11/18/03
Gee, and the courts are always right?  Delaware Boy | 11/18/03
but...  ryusen | 11/18/03
...truth notwithstanding :o)  Jack-Booted EULA | 11/18/03
If you can't beat 'em... bolt everything  MacCanuck | 11/19/03
Re: History's largest criminal monopoly...  rapson | 11/18/03
hmm, don't like the sound of it ?  moiety | 11/18/03
Is your code as bloated as your articles  bidemytime | 11/18/03
Code bloat...  rthorat@... | 11/18/03
I found it just right.  No_Ax_to_Grind | 11/18/03
I am a slow reader  bidemytime | 11/18/03
We'll Wait  Don Bradley | 11/18/03
Okay, I'll get right on it  bidemytime | 11/19/03
Actually, I have to change my offer  bidemytime | 11/19/03
Antitrust, law-breaking, remedies, future deterrence  umashekhar | 11/18/03
Do those laws actually help anything?  voska | 11/18/03
Sure it does..  Delaware Boy | 11/18/03
Regarding past use of antitrust  John CarrollZDNet Moderator | 11/18/03
And here is your main problem!  serpentmage | 11/18/03
I see your mistake...  No_Ax_to_Grind | 11/18/03
I think I see why you are confused....  B.O.F.H. | 11/18/03
My Mistake????  serpentmage | 11/18/03
In other words...  John CarrollZDNet Moderator | 11/19/03
Confusing economic policy with criminal law  John CarrollZDNet Moderator | 11/18/03
Come on John...get real already  GRindinAxTaRupy | 11/18/03
Look back at the Rockefeller's road to success  tero_t_vaananen@... | 11/18/03
EC and Monopolies  Frihet | 11/18/03
You might just have a point...  John CarrollZDNet Moderator | 11/19/03
Mr. Carroll  FirstNLastN | 11/18/03
Europe will fall to Linux one way or another.  DonnieBoy | 11/18/03
It wouldn't be the first time  Mark Miller | 12/01/03
I beg to differ ...  wallyweb@... | 11/18/03
Yes...  John CarrollZDNet Moderator | 11/19/03
You mean..  Patrick Jones | 11/19/03
Again ... I beg to differ  wallyweb@... | 11/19/03
No...  bgoss@... | 11/19/03
Hit it squar on hte head. Media Player is too good.  No_Ax_to_Grind | 11/18/03
Stop it..  Delaware Boy | 11/18/03
Oops, my bad.  No_Ax_to_Grind | 11/18/03
hardly  ryusen | 11/18/03
Should they 'unbolt' networking?  No_Ax_to_Grind | 11/18/03
maybe they should!  ryusen | 11/18/03
Good on you, but not me.  No_Ax_to_Grind | 11/18/03
how does it destroy your choice?  ryusen | 11/18/03
Not "sense"... should be "scents"...  MacCanuck | 11/19/03
No, he's not...  WhoIsDaMan | 11/20/03
re: Media Player is too good.  Iain_Peters | 11/18/03
I see your mistake Iain.  No_Ax_to_Grind | 11/18/03
You see nothing at all  Iain_Peters | 11/18/03
Where we disagree then..  No_Ax_to_Grind | 11/18/03
how many timesq  ryusen | 11/18/03
Talk about spin...  No_Ax_to_Grind | 11/18/03
very silly...  ryusen | 11/18/03
Yes you are but I deal with it.  No_Ax_to_Grind | 11/18/03
re: axe  ryusen | 11/18/03
I see your mistake No_Ax  Mack DaNife | 11/20/03
But if Media Player is too good...  Robert Crocker | 11/18/03
Nice try, foolish but still nice.  No_Ax_to_Grind | 11/18/03
How does WMP promote the sales of Windows?  Robert Crocker | 11/18/03
Incorrect analysis  John CarrollZDNet Moderator | 11/19/03
Utter garbage  Robert Crocker | 11/19/03
no disagreement  ryusen | 11/19/03
Yours Too  Mack DaNife | 11/20/03
Wrong answer  WhoIsDaMan | 11/20/03
Don, Don, Don  bgoss@... | 11/18/03
Simple question, simple answer.  No_Ax_to_Grind | 11/18/03
Simple question - answer doesn't work  bgoss@... | 11/18/03
Almost...  Patrick Jones | 11/18/03
Your memory is playing tricks on you.  Mr.E._z | 11/18/03
More Response  John CarrollZDNet Moderator | 11/19/03
Selective or exclusionary memory John  MacCanuck | 11/19/03
John, you are forgetting the truth  Fred Fredrickson | 11/20/03
Re: John, you are forgetting the truth  Mark Miller | 12/03/03
There is more to it. Jealousy is a big issue.  No_Ax_to_Grind | 11/18/03
If Jelousy helps, so much the better.  DonnieBoy | 11/18/03
Thanks, your a great example.  No_Ax_to_Grind | 11/18/03
No Ax to Grind? I don't think so  bidemytime | 11/18/03
How to know when you've won.  No_Ax_to_Grind | 11/18/03
Then I guess...  bidemytime | 11/18/03
Tell me...  No_Ax_to_Grind | 11/18/03
I don't have to go to Europe to make this judgment  bidemytime | 11/18/03
You need do nothing to have an opinion.  No_Ax_to_Grind | 11/18/03
RE: There is more to it. Jealousy is a big issue.  Iain_Peters | 11/18/03
More holes than swiss cheese.  No_Ax_to_Grind | 11/18/03
Unfortunately ..  Iain_Peters | 11/18/03
Pulease!!! Get a fricking life!  No_Ax_to_Grind | 11/18/03
More "scents" from Bit...  MacCanuck | 11/19/03
wordy but essentially correct  bthomasmo@... | 11/18/03
But John...  bidemytime | 11/18/03
Whats the next application to be part of the OS?  Iain_Peters | 11/18/03
What ever the customers want.  No_Ax_to_Grind | 11/18/03
People are not as free as you think.  DonnieBoy | 11/18/03
So your point is...  No_Ax_to_Grind | 11/18/03
(NT) Whatever best promotes lock-in and monopoly, of course! :o)  Jack-Booted EULA | 11/18/03
How about the application server?  Mark Miller | 12/01/03
A profound misunderstanding...  Robert Crocker | 11/18/03
Yes, you have made a large one.  No_Ax_to_Grind | 11/18/03
Don't let facts inform your arguments...  Robert Crocker | 11/18/03
Aw Robert, I see where you went wrong.  No_Ax_to_Grind | 11/18/03
(NT) Back to your trademark name-calling again...  Jack-Booted EULA | 11/18/03
Who went wrong?!?  Robert Crocker | 11/18/03
You are confused.  No_Ax_to_Grind | 11/18/03
NWOR  Robert Crocker | 11/19/03
Sneak preview of John Carroll's next article  jellyclock | 11/18/03
As always, well thought out and articulated...  No_Ax_to_Grind | 11/18/03
Oh do go on Bit  jellyclock | 11/19/03
john, john, john...  ryusen | 11/18/03
An open question to Linux fans...  No_Ax_to_Grind | 11/18/03
What about MAC/BSD fans?  Iain_Peters | 11/18/03
Bogus argument at best...  No_Ax_to_Grind | 11/18/03
RE: Bogus argument at best...  Iain_Peters | 11/18/03
I see your problem.  No_Ax_to_Grind | 11/18/03
So...  Patrick Jones | 11/19/03
My experience  voska | 11/19/03
Bit knows bogus  MacCanuck | 11/19/03
Well yeah, I'm talking to you aren't I?  No_Ax_to_Grind | 11/19/03
Ouch... Bit Belligerently Bites Back  MacCanuck | 11/20/03
depends...  ryusen | 11/18/03
Read it, you are still wrong.  No_Ax_to_Grind | 11/18/03
read it...  ryusen | 11/18/03
Nothing to 'get', we disagree.  No_Ax_to_Grind | 11/18/03
exactly  ryusen | 11/18/03
You are the one that doesn't 'get it'.  No_Ax_to_Grind | 11/18/03
maybe  ryusen | 11/18/03
I hate these new talkbacks  Patrick Jones | 11/19/03
I see Bits Point here  voska | 11/19/03
I see Bits Point here  voska | 11/19/03
bits points, but...  ryusen | 11/19/03
Another straw man Don  bgoss@... | 11/18/03
Strawman my behind.  No_Ax_to_Grind | 11/18/03
If you insist - a Strawman is your behind  bgoss@... | 11/18/03
Why is it Either , Or  Mack DaNife | 11/19/03
Simple.  No_Ax_to_Grind | 11/19/03
Simple - yes it is, it's even simpler than that.  bgoss@... | 11/19/03
I don't see you logic here  voska | 11/19/03
Sad, not one straight answer in the bunch.  No_Ax_to_Grind | 11/18/03
Huh?  Patrick Jones | 11/19/03
Not a straight question either  DonnieBoy | 11/19/03
An open question to Microsoft fans...  Robert Crocker | 11/18/03
Unlike others, I'll answer honestly.  No_Ax_to_Grind | 11/18/03
Come on Robert, tell me again...  No_Ax_to_Grind | 11/18/03
Hypocrisy, thy name is RealMedia  No_Ax_to_Grind | 11/18/03
You're logic is fails again here  voska | 11/19/03
Longhorn's probably going to kill the browser  Mark Miller | 12/03/03
Isn't it funny  NemesisNL | 11/19/03
Sorry, that dog won't hunt.  No_Ax_to_Grind | 11/19/03
Sorry, most people do not want two browsers on thier computer.  DonnieBoy | 11/19/03
Two-Bit response  Robert Crocker | 11/19/03
Uhm... Because it's not about the product, primarily?  Anton Philidor | 11/19/03
A few reasons  voska | 11/19/03
C'mon, I talked about that already  Anton Philidor | 11/19/03
Why do cars have paint?  No_Ax_to_Grind | 11/19/03
I don't think so  voska | 11/19/03
Maybe more if Microsoft screws up...  dsentman@... | 11/20/03
paint...  ryusen | 11/19/03
paint...  ryusen | 11/19/03
When..  Patrick Jones | 11/19/03
Realplayer for Mac  tic swayback | 11/19/03
Lies, damned lies and Bit's opinion  Fred Fredrickson | 11/20/03
answer  screaming silence | 11/18/03
Sorry, you are wrong.  No_Ax_to_Grind | 11/18/03
Re: An open question to Linux fans...  none none | 11/18/03
To simplify, no it is not.  No_Ax_to_Grind | 11/19/03
YES  voska | 11/19/03
depending on your business, yes...  B.O.F.H. | 11/19/03
I'm extremely disappointed with this piece.  berck | 11/18/03
ARRRRGH!  Robert Crocker | 11/18/03
But, I love you, you love me....  No_Ax_to_Grind | 11/18/03
Barney's in rehab...  John CarrollZDNet Moderator | 11/19/03
Take it easy, John.  Anton Philidor | 11/19/03
Dude, you really must love the sound of your own typing  Martin L | 11/18/03
Like the talkback posters you mean?  No_Ax_to_Grind | 11/18/03
Find one respected economist to agree monopolies are good for software.  DonnieBoy | 11/18/03
Well, lets ask the courts shall we.  No_Ax_to_Grind | 11/18/03
Courts were asked, DOJ caved in  bgoss@... | 11/18/03
State AG's 'caved in'? Don't think so...  No_Ax_to_Grind | 11/19/03
Typical Don response - didn't bother to answer the question  bgoss@... | 11/19/03
Here's the evidence  Fred Fredrickson | 11/20/03
Thanks Fred... that Bit of info says it all  MacCanuck | 11/20/03
Attn: John Carrol, must read this... AMAZING!  No_Ax_to_Grind | 11/18/03
I'll give it a half hour, but...  No_Ax_to_Grind | 11/18/03
you lose, your bet  ryusen | 11/18/03
You miss the point completely.  No_Ax_to_Grind | 11/18/03
do you actually want to refute my point?  ryusen | 11/18/03
Do yourself a favor ZZ, READ!!!  No_Ax_to_Grind | 11/18/03
so tell me  ryusen | 11/18/03
For what it is worth....  B.O.F.H. | 11/18/03
Can you say Hypocrisy?  No_Ax_to_Grind | 11/18/03
BUWAH-HA-HA-HA-HA-HA-HA-HA-HA-HA-HA-HA-HA-HA-HA-HA-HA-HA-HA-HA-HA-HA-HA....  Jack-Booted EULA | 11/18/03
Cute, anything of value to say?  No_Ax_to_Grind | 11/18/03
again, he must have learned from you .)  ryusen | 11/18/03
Exposing hypocrisy is always valuable.....  Jack-Booted EULA | 11/18/03
LOL  d_jedi | 11/18/03
Wow, thanks for the research  John CarrollZDNet Moderator | 11/18/03
That IS interesting  NemesisNL | 11/19/03
You know little about programming, and it shows.  No_Ax_to_Grind | 11/19/03
please leave things you know nothing of alone  NemesisNL | 11/19/03
An HTML 'programmer'. I see...  No_Ax_to_Grind | 11/19/03
An HTML 'programmer'  NemesisNL | 11/19/03
problems with markup and scripting langauges, a little unclear?  B.O.F.H. | 11/19/03
No, you don't..  d_jedi | 11/19/03
Just a few points...  John CarrollZDNet Moderator | 11/19/03
Just a few points...  John CarrollZDNet Moderator | 11/19/03
No, you are way off  Mark Miller | 12/01/03
Obviously, RealMedai agrees with you.  No_Ax_to_Grind | 11/19/03
What research...  Patrick Jones | 11/19/03
Do YOUR research.  No_Ax_to_Grind | 11/19/03
Actually,  Patrick Jones | 11/19/03
Easy / hard, they did it the MS way.  No_Ax_to_Grind | 11/19/03
What does that have to do anything?  John CarrollZDNet Moderator | 11/19/03
Exactly!  No_Ax_to_Grind | 11/19/03
Alot...  Patrick Jones | 11/19/03
The answer is so simple.  No_Ax_to_Grind | 11/19/03
The answer IS simple - it's just not your answer  bgoss@... | 11/19/03
Because...  John CarrollZDNet Moderator | 11/19/03
Stable indeed  Patrick Jones | 11/19/03
To Patrick  John CarrollZDNet Moderator | 11/19/03
Yep, these new talkbacks are a doozy  Patrick Jones | 11/19/03
Benficiaries?!?  Robert Crocker | 11/19/03
Is that why they use...  No_Ax_to_Grind | 11/19/03
Wrong, John  Fred Fredrickson | 11/20/03
I know you were addressing John,  rapson | 11/20/03
There is a difference..  Patrick Jones | 11/19/03
No difference at all.  No_Ax_to_Grind | 11/19/03
That's funny..  Patrick Jones | 11/19/03
You aren't listening...  No_Ax_to_Grind | 11/19/03
Ok, now we are getting somewhere  Patrick Jones | 11/19/03
No really...  No_Ax_to_Grind | 11/19/03
I hate these new talkbacks  Patrick Jones | 11/19/03
Requirement driven by MS itself  Robert Crocker | 11/19/03
Or, it makes sense to use one method.  No_Ax_to_Grind | 11/19/03
Aw, poor ZZ, down to insulting as a last resort.  No_Ax_to_Grind | 11/18/03
the differnece is  ryusen | 11/18/03
2+2=4 Do you need a site?  No_Ax_to_Grind | 11/19/03
and again...  ryusen | 11/19/03
Hey, if it makes you happy...  No_Ax_to_Grind | 11/19/03
thank you i will  ryusen | 11/19/03
Let me re-word  Hard Cider | 11/18/03
Good refreshing read..  d_jedi | 11/18/03
Amazing this argument keeps going on  Anton Philidor | 11/18/03
A small disagreement.  No_Ax_to_Grind | 11/19/03
With that clarification, agreed.  Anton Philidor | 11/19/03
Consider though..  No_Ax_to_Grind | 11/19/03
Missed the point Anton  Fred Fredrickson | 11/19/03
Didn't miss it; you're making a new point  Anton Philidor | 11/19/03
See the MIDI vulnerability  Robert Crocker | 11/20/03
people seem to forget  lmaxwell | 11/21/03
Actually HP can't *disallow* it  dscherf | 11/21/03
we just setting record strait  lmaxwell | 11/23/03
Open letter to the author  none none | 11/18/03
Windows still monolithic...  stmueller | 11/19/03
Hmmm, maybe, but then that is their choice.  No_Ax_to_Grind | 11/19/03
Hey, MS users, get it... they got what they got....  mlindl | 11/19/03
Hmmm, you need a lesson I suppose.  No_Ax_to_Grind | 11/19/03
Bad arguemnts start from bad assumptions.  Mack DaNife | 11/19/03
His assumptions aren't bad, yours are questionable  Anton Philidor | 11/19/03
Your logic is incomplete  Fred Fredrickson | 11/19/03
I disagree, but thoughtful comments  Anton Philidor | 11/19/03
Sorry, didn't finish editing  Anton Philidor | 11/19/03
Not at all  Fred Fredrickson | 11/20/03
Misguided too  Fred Fredrickson | 11/20/03
I disagree  seriously | 11/19/03
I see your mistake.  No_Ax_to_Grind | 11/19/03
MS held a gun to the PC companies' head  seriously | 11/19/03
Again, I make a simple point to consider.  No_Ax_to_Grind | 11/19/03
MS held a gun to the PC companies' head  seriously | 11/19/03
You are mistaken John.  Tim Patterson | 11/19/03
Thanks everyone for an INCREDIBLE debate  John CarrollZDNet Moderator | 11/19/03
Good luck to ya...  Patrick Jones | 11/19/03
NOOOOO  ryusen | 11/19/03
Thank You John...  No_Ax_to_Grind | 11/19/03
FLASH - Bit is Ballmer on half rations of Valium  MacCanuck | 11/19/03
Not design, but marketing  dmhenderson2 | 11/19/03
There will never be a level playing field.  No_Ax_to_Grind | 11/19/03
partially agree  ryusen | 11/19/03
Not really...  Patrick Jones | 11/19/03
Hard cases make bad law...  dsentman@... | 11/19/03
Re: Hard cases make bad law...  none none | 11/19/03
Open letter to John Carroll  Fred Fredrickson | 11/19/03
Gotta agree with Fred  IT_User | 11/19/03
Blasted lack of preview!  IT_User | 11/19/03
Gosh, that's refreshing  rapson | 11/19/03
I agree  lmaxwell | 11/21/03
ms is giving the products away "FREE"  lmaxwell | 11/23/03
Could someone please...  dsentman@... | 11/27/03
Is John qualified to talk all these?  krisan | 02/15/04
Is John qualified to talk all these?  krisan | 02/15/04

What do you think?

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